Skip to content

I Know Dino Podcast Present Notes: Edmontonia (Episode 102)


    In our 102nd episode, we had the pleasure of talking with Peter Might, President of Analysis Casting Worldwide.

    Episode 102 can also be about Edmontonia, a nodosaur discovered within the Edmonton Formation in Canada that had shoulder spikes.

    Are you a dinosaur fanatic? Be part of our rising group on Patreon!

    Thanks! Thanks to all our present Patreon supporters!

    You’ll be able to hearken to our free podcast, with all our episodes, on iTunes at:

    On this episode, we focus on:

    • The dinosaur of the day: Edmontonia
    • Named after the Edmonton Formation (now the Horseshow Canyon Formation, in Canada) the place it was discovered
    • A part of the nodosaur household
    • Lived within the Late Cretaceous
    • Charles Sternberg named the sort species, Edmontonia longiceps, in 1928. Longiceps means “lengthy headed” in Latin
    • Charles Sternberg didn’t classify Edmontonia, and L.S. Russell labeled it as Nodosauridae in 1930 (which has been confirmed)
    • George Paterson, the teamster on an expedition Charles Sternberg led, discovered Edmontonia longiceps in 1924 (on that expedition). He discovered a cranium, decrease proper jaw and loads of the postcranial skeleton, together with the armor
    • Barnum Brown discovered Edmontonia rugosidens in 1915 in Alberta, Canada, and despatched it to the American Museum of Pure Historical past (although it wasn’t but named). William Diller Matthew referred the specimen to Palaeoscincus in 1922 in a well-liked science article, with out naming the species. It was supposed to call a brand new species, in conjnction with Brown, however the article wasn’t revealed. Matthew additionally referred one other specimen discovered by Levi Sternberg in 1917. Then in 1930 Charles Gilmore referred each of those specimens to Palaeoscincus rugosidens, based mostly on a sort speciment present in 1928 by George Fryer Sternberg. The species identify means “tough tooth.” In 1940 Lori Shano Russell referred all three specimens to Edmontonia rugosidens
    • Two important Edmontonia species: sort species Edmontonia longiceps, and Edmontonia rugosidens (which had its personal genus for some time, Chassternbergia, named by Bob Bakker as a subgenus in 1988 based mostly on residing earlier than Edmontonia longiceps and have a unique cranium proportion. Then George Olshevsky gave it the complete generic identify in 1991. The identify honors Charles “Chas” Sternberg although this subgenus/genus identify is never utilized. Later finds have been referred to Edmontonia rugosidens)
    • In 1971 Walter Preston Coombs Jr. renamed the 2 important Edmontonia specia to Panoplosaurus longiceps and Panoplosaurus rudosidens however the identify Edmontonia was later revived
    • Different species: Edmontonia schlessmani (initially Denversaurus schlessmani till 1992), Edmontonia australis (named in 2000 by Tracy Lee Ford) although now thought of to be a junior synonym of Glyptodontopelta mimus
    • Gregory Paul urged in 2010 that Edmontonia rugosidens was a direct ancestor of Edmontonia longiceps, which was a direct ancestor of Edmontonia schlessmani
    • Cumbersome and like a tank. About 22 ft (6.6 m) lengthy, although Gregory Paul estimated in 2010 that two of the Edmontonia species, Edmontonia longiceps and Edmontonia rugosidens, had been about 20 ft (6 m) lengthy and weighed 3 tons
    • Had a pear like formed cranium (when considered from above)
    • Physique had many osteoderms
    • Plates protected its neck and shoulders
    • Had small bony plates on its again and head and sharp spikes alongside its sides. 4 largest spikes had been on its shoulders. In Edmontonia rugosidens, the second set of spikes on its shoulders cut up into subspines
    • Edmontonia longiceps spikes had been comparatively small, dimension of spikes different in Edmontonia rugosidens
    • Shoulder spikes had stable bases
    • Most likely had massive spikes to draw mates or defend territory, additionally to intimidate rivals or predators or for self protection
    • Shoulder spikes wouldn’t have been nice protection, since they solely lined the shoulders (in all probability not nice towards massive theropods liks Albertosaurus and Dapletosaurus)
    • Spikes may have been like horns, the place Edmontonia locked them to point out dominance
    • Kenneth Carpenter described traits of Edmontonia in 1990, by evaluating it with shut relative Panoplosaurus (snout had parallel sides, cranium armor was easy on the floor, had shorter neural arches and neural spines than Panoplosaurus)
    • Carpenter additionally confirmed how two of the Edmontonia species had been completely different. Edmontonia rugosidens didn’t have sideways projecting osteoderms behind its eye sockets, and Edmontonia longiceps didn’t have an ossified cheek plate
    • Cranium was as much as 1.6 ft (0.5 m) lengthy and elongated, with a sexy higher beak
    • Had a “paranasal” tract that ran alongside the skin of the nasal cavity (first time present in a nodosaurid, however not an ankylosaurid, which had extra complicated air tracts
    • Might have stayed low to the bottom to forestall predators from flipping them over and attacking their underbelly
    • Didn’t have a tail membership (like ankylosaurids) and had a narrower mouth than ankylosaurids
    • Edmontonia appeared in “Dinosaurs: Unextinct” on the L.A. Zoo,” a brand new exhibit that opens April 15 and runs by Oct. 31.
    • Additionally on the LA County Honest this 12 months (led to Sept)
    • Additionally a part of an exhibit on the NC Aquarium this 12 months (led to Sept)
    • Nodosauridae is a household of ankylosaurs
    • They lived within the late Jurassic to late Cretaceous in what’s now North America, Europe, Asia, and Antarctica
    • They had been medium to massive, and heavy
    • Quadrupedal herbivores
    • Had osteoderms on their our bodies
    • Enjoyable reality: An homage to Dippy… Dippy has been on show on the Pure Historical past Museum in London since 1905. A solid was ordered from the U.S. after King Edward the seventh noticed Carnegie’s sketch of the unique. In 2017 its 292 bones can be packed up and it’ll tour the U.Okay. for not less than a couple of months.

    This episode was delivered to you by:

    The Royal Tyrrell Museum. The Royal Tyrrell Museum is positioned in southern Alberta, Canada. One of many prime paleontological analysis institutes on this planet, the complete museum is devoted to the science of paleontology. It’s undoubtedly a should see for each dinosaur fanatic. Extra data could be discovered at

    For individuals who could choose studying, see under for the complete transcript of our interview with Peter Might:

    Garret: So we’re joined at the moment by Peter Might, the president of Analysis Casting Worldwide they usually’re accountable for mainly all the large dinosaur tasks that we’ve talked about not too long ago, not less than so far as museums are involved. So may you give us a quick historical past of what sort of began you down this profession path?

    Peter Might: Positive, yeah. We’ve been in enterprise for 30 years now, and so we work for museums all through the world. The earliest ones had been in New York Metropolis with the [inaudible 00:00:28] and people within the early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. And the British Museum we had been working there again then, museums in Japan.

    There have been these and we’re nonetheless in contact with all these museums and it’s solely now some museums are coming again to us, the exhibit is previous, 30 years previous. They’re outdated, so now they’re calling us again to go and sort things up which is fairly neat.

    Garret: So that you began with the rearing dinosaurs? That’s a giant begin.

    Peter Might: Yeah, it was. It was an enormous begin. We began there after which the British Museum in London, the Pure Historical past Museum it’s referred to as now with their dinosaur exhibit with about 25 skeletons for them again then.

    Garret: So did you do Dippy again then? No, Dippy was older, proper?

    Peter Might: Yeah, Dippy was within the corridor at the moment. They had been going again over to work on the Dippy in January this coming 12 months.

    Garret: So that you’re mainly making it able to be disassembled and reassembled time and again whereas it travels round, proper?

    Peter Might: Yeah. It’s going to be a travelling exhibit. I feel they’re 4, 5 venues simply now, and that begins a 12 months in January, so January 2018.

    Interview: Cool.

    Sabrina: Is it much more tough to get one thing prepared for journey versus staying on exhibitor?

    Peter Might: One thing like Dippy is a bit more durable as a result of it’s an previous plaster now. These days loads of the work we do is in plastic, fiberglass, and issues like that, and the mounts are made so that they’re modular. So on this case what we’re doing, we’re taking the previous mount which is then again within the 20s, after which we’ll flip right into a extra fashionable modular mount, as a result of the father or mother comes collectively lots simpler.

    Garret: Cool. So when you’re making a brand new one for a museum even when it’s not touring, do you make it modular only for use sooner or later or…

    Peter Might: Yeah, within the odd case we’ll wound one thing up, but it surely’s very uncommon. Now we now have key methods for utilizing, we machine the joints and we now have machine screws that maintain issues collectively.

    Garret: Cool. So the opposite I feel actually large factor you probably did not too long ago was the titanosaur for the American Museum of Pure Historical past. What was casting that like? I noticed a few footage in your slide present.

    Peter Might: Nicely that was a giant return to the AMNH. We went in there a very long time, in order that was 1992, after which we had been again there final 12 months. After which what it was, it was the most important titanosaur we ever discovered and they’re excavated within the area in Argentina. So, sure we see in Berlin they usually requested us if we might be concerned in there.

    So we despatched a crew to Argentina with our scanners, digital scanners and because it got here out of the sphere we scanned it. And it was being flipped over, we’d scan one facet after which they flipped the blocks, ready the opposite facet, then we despatched the crew down once more. And we went down in February for 2 weeks, then went down once more in Might, and we had all the things scanned after which got here again to our store and we put that right into a CAD program, we lined it up on a milling machine, [inaudible 00:03:22] entry milling machine. And we carved the entire thing up after which we take molds off it. Then we mounted one for Argentina. It’s in [inaudible 00:03:30] proper now, then the opposite one went to the American Museum of Pure Historical past.

    Garret: Cool, I didn’t notice there was one in Argentina too.

    Peter Might: Yeah. And that was filmed in David Attenborough’s BBC present.

    Garret: Yeah, they usually had [crosstalk 00:03:44] factor to go along with it.

    Peter Might: Yeah, they had been down there for all that in Argentina.

    Garret: Cool. Yeah. So with a titanosaur was there some 3D printing or is that the 5 axis…

    Peter Might: That was 5 axis film, as a result of it was too large to print. The printers we now have like they’re pretty small as compared like you’ll be able to print perhaps a foot, by a foot, by a foot.

    Garret: Okay.

    Peter Might: After which the cranium behind us there that’s a print initially.

    Garret Might: Oh actually?

    Peter: And we simply printed up in part by part, assemble it after which we take the mould off of, and that’s the horned dinosaur.

    Garret: I actually like the concept of utilizing 3D printing in all of this paleontology and casting, molding expertise as a result of it’s so accessible. And so that you mainly use it form of as like a step within the course of somewhat than doing the sculpting essentially or?

    Peter Might: Nicely once more as an example like we now have two miles in entrance of a mosasaur and a plesiosaur, they usually’re going to usher in to deliver Kuwait and these are the dimensions fashions have been constructed out of the proxy by our sculptors and we sculpt at small scale. We ship it to our shopper, they approve it and the approvals are at this stage after which what we do, we scan the fashions, after which enlarge the fashions to suit. Just like the mannequin right here is a couple of foot and a half and the completed one goes to go 48 toes lengthy, and it’s in manufacturing now in our store.

    Garret: That’s superior; yeah these are like actually cool. Is that the primary stuff you’ve executed within the Center East or have you ever executed different stuff over there earlier than?

    Peter Might: We’ve executed a few smaller tasks in Egypt and we did one thing in Jordan.

    Garret: Okay, so I don’t consider dinosaurs once I consider the Center East actually.

    Peter Might: No. The museum they’re constructing is large.

    Garret: Superior.

    Peter Might: I feel it opens subsequent fall, and we’re on account of set up there in March of subsequent 12 months.

    Garret: Cool. Yeah they don’t do something small.

    Peter Might: No.

    Sabrina: So how many individuals work with you now?

    Peter Might: Our workers proper now might be is 35 and we now have about our facility is I assume a 48,000 sq. toes, and there we now have conservators who deal with the fossil supplies for the job on the Smithsonian. After which we now have a mounting space only for the Smithsonian. We’ve got a collections there, and it’s all local weather managed as a result of they’re fossils, there aren’t any outlets, so we now have to take care of them.

    Garret: Cool. You’re truly not simply mounting issues and rearranging issues, you’re truly making ready a number of the fossils proper there, a few of them had been nonetheless encased partially in like a jacket?

    Peter Might: Yeah. They’re kind of at a plaque, the one highway kill Stegosaurus, that’s its nickname. And it’s a facet specimen of [inaudible 00:06:20] Stenops and it was on the facet after which what we’ve executed we [inaudible 00:06:25] and we’ve flipped it over and it’s mendacity on its plates. So the bottom nobody’s has ever seen since Thirties when it was ready.

    Garret: Superior.

    Peter Might: And we’re going to mount it vertically. So what folks will see is either side of the animal because it died.

    Garret: That’s actually cool. How is all of the stuff going other than the…

    Peter Might: It’s going very well. We’ve got a digicam so what we’re doing—which can also be outdoors and that was nearly utterly embedded matrix on the facet it’s mendacity on. And it’s a really, very exhausting facet so we began to know why they didn’t proceed [crossover 00:06:53].

    Garret: They did all the straightforward stuff however then left the remaining for you.

    Peter Might: They went so far as they might I assume comfortably. And so they in all probability had a deadline; it was a type of issues they in all probability collected seeing it on the exhibit so that they solely went as far as, “Nicely simply—we’ll put it mendacity down.” That’s nice.

    Garret: Once you’re organising an actual holotype or no solid of a dinosaur skeleton, I noticed that you simply use big sandboxes or cellular sandboxes to carry the—how does that work?

    Peter Might: Nicely we now have fairly a couple of there. We’ve got them within the conservation, we now have in our blacksmith lab as nicely the place it’s like a fifth hand, third hand I assume. And the place they’ll do like you’ll be able to set the fossil within the sand after which if something does occur, it’s not going to fall very far, it can fall simply into the sand. As a result of one rule you study very early is rarely maintain the fossil over the ground, as a result of if one thing does—and it does occur—some fossils are very previous and conserved perhaps 50, 60 years in the past within the conservancy, within the [inaudible 00:07:56], the previous ones that they use. And that’s what we’re doing now, we’re eradicating as a lot of the previous materials as we will and introducing new glues as he sits on the conservancy that had been authorised within the final one other 150 years.

    Garret: Yeah. I didn’t take into consideration the glue failing after which a part of the fossil falling, that’s obtained to be…

    Peter Might: Yeah, and it occurs, and you’ll see this. In case you look very intently, the previous specimen that begin to crystallize, it’s a giant hand if the glue joints are crystallizing then it’s in all probability failed. And typically having a management break is advantageous to us as a result of then we will introduce molten solvents contained in the bone, then put together it somewhat higher.

    Garret: Attention-grabbing.

    Sabrina: So may you inform us a bit concerning the course of you’ve, the paleontologists who come to you after which they have already got just about what they need in thoughts and then you definately inform them what’s doable or?

    Peter Might: Yeah. There’s a complete vary like there’s some paleontologists who know precisely what they need, after which what we do, we’ll get a sketch from a paleontologist after which we are going to do a drawing of it and in addition the place we will do that, this and this. Then we’ll return to them after which if they’ve any modifications to be made they’ll make them.

    In different circumstances we get a stick drawing, they usually’ll say, “Do no matter you’ll be able to.” You guys have been doing so many as a result of through the years we’ve executed—we counted up a short while in the past, and I feel we’re in all probability over 800 skeletons we’ve executed on this duplicate.

    So after we do, we go right into a museum, like in the event that they’re doing a brand new exhibit, the folks there could not have mounted any, like they haven’t executed something in any respect they usually do not know what they need to do they usually might need little, little expertise. Then you’ve different museums, they don’t have any expertise by any means. So they give the impression of being to us for a little bit of steerage alongside the best way. After which we’ll take measurements of all the things earlier than we begin mounting after which we all know how large this fossil can be and that’s the exhibit designers.

    Then they understand how large the circumstances must be as a result of there have been circumstances, like within the historical past of the corporate the place issues have been measured and gone to building for the circumstances, when the case come again they don’t match. And the larger one is a horse exhibit the place they went to the exhibit analysis firm they usually made all of the circumstances they usually despatched the circumstances to us and all of the circumstances had been vertical as a substitute of horizontal. So that you suppose, nicely they need to have identified it was a horse exhibit, horses don’t sit vertical however that they had 4 circumstances, all the things was vertical, the legs. So whoever did it obtained the size with top combined up.

    Sabrina: Oh no, so what did they find yourself doing?

    Peter Might: They needed to make model new circumstances.

    Sabrina: Yeah, that is smart.

    Peter Might: The width turned the peak, so prefer it’s all unusable.

    Garret: Nicely it’s good that it wasn’t your mistake not less than.

    Peter Might: Yeah, but it surely ought to happen nicely forward of time. That’s one instance we use after we do go to museums, like to verify the measurements are okay and it’s often higher for us to do it, as a result of with the exhibit designers at instances it’s simply an afterthought, like they’ll be on the museum having a gathering, so nicely I’m there, I’ll make a measurement after which we go down and measure one thing within the gum after we go, and that’s our focus, then we’ll ensure that it’s correct.

    Garret: You realize what you’re in search of whereas they’re simply going to eyeballing.

    Peter Might: Yeah.

    Garret: Cool. Do you’ve a favourite venture that you simply’ve labored on thus far?

    Peter Might: They’re all thrilling I feel, as a result of they’re all new. The massive titanosaur was nice, it didn’t fairly match within the room, and we needed to make it match within the room. That was thrilling, and it’s all the time—I do know for us I feel it’s all concerning the opening, as a result of we work, like in our store proper now, we in all probability have 20 skeletons on the go.

    So it was constructing skeleton, then after they transfer away from our store they usually go right into a museum then the opening—and it’s all the time the youngsters, they arrive in and, “Have a look at that.” I simply mild up and they’re so glad and then you definately really feel that. We attempt to get as many workers out to a gap like that as we will simply in order that they’ll see their work on show, after which notice that it’s not only a job gluing bones collectively, it has one other function.

    Garret: That’s nice. So do you’ve a background in blacksmithing or how did you…

    Peter Might: No, I don’t, Guth does, who’s right here, and Matt right here, he’s obtained some blacksmithing. My background is especially molding and casting facet. That’s going to be a sculpture so it’s throughout molding and casting and welding armatures and issues like that.

    And now we’ve introduced crew in like [inaudible 00:12:16] a grasp blacksmith and Matt is a [middle line 00:12:19] so he is aware of his means across the machines and the engineering drawings and all that kind of stuff. So we now have an excellent crew of skilled folks now.

    Garret: Cool. I noticed in your web site too, you even have a factor for sculpting and it’s loads of inventive type sculpting in order that form of is smart along with your background.

    Peter Might: Yeah.

    Garret: Cool.

    Sabrina: So aside from the Smithsonian new displays approaching 2019, what else can we sit up for seeing from you?

    Peter Might: We’ve got the venture right here, the fashions right here. We’re doing it for the Naturist Museum in Kuwait.

    Sabrina: Proper.

    Peter Might: That’s subsequent 12 months after which we’re doing the blue whale skeleton for Pure Historical past Museum in London. After which we now have Dippy that’s happening in conjunction, one goes in, one goes out kind of factor. After which we’re doing two blue whales, one for the [inaudible 00:13:06] in Toronto, one other one for Memorial College in St John’s Newfoundland, so that they’re fairly large, like 80 foot blue whale within the store, after which we now have two of them. Then we do one other one in England and that’s all by spring subsequent 12 months, so there’s lots happening simply there.

    Sabrina: There may be yeah, busy.

    Garret: How large is your store which you can match a blue whale and all these dinosaurs and all the things in?

    Peter Might: I feel round, nicely we now have a 40,000 sq. toes. We’re in all probability 200 toes broad and 800 toes lengthy.

    Garret: Wow.

    Peter Might: Yeah, so it’s fairly large.

    Garret: So it’s mainly a warehouse?

    Peter Might: Yeah.

    Sabrina: Really we noticed a video, was it ABC or one thing? ABC Information did like a two minute video of your warehouse?

    Peter Might: Yeah.

    Garret: Cool. Exterior of dinosaurs and prehistoric and issues and blue whales, are there some other animals which might be actually fashionable?

    Peter:Might Nicely we delve into different areas like we’ve executed coral reefs and we’ve executed hydro thermal occasions, the planets, and the planets [inaudible 00:14:07] with ANMH we’ve executed them.

    Garret: Cool.

    Peter Might: So we do, do different work however I imply bread and butter extinct animals and was on the verge of extinction just like the blue whale. So yeah was revolving round that kind of factor.

    Garret: Cool.

    Sabrina: So another query we ask all people this, what’s your favourite dinosaur?

    Peter Might: Most likely the Brachiosaurus [ph] in Berlin, yeah that’s a pleasant factor. Nicely it’s not as large because the [inaudible 00:14:34] in comparison with these new ones arising. It’s kind of the ears have shrunk somewhat bit, but it surely’s nonetheless my favourite I feel.

    Sabrina: Yeah, that’s a superb one. Nicely thanks a lot.

    Peter: Okay thanks, it was superb, thanks.